Sue Bird Episode Transcript
Note: Badass Jews is produced for the ear and designed to be heard, not read. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page. Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
Aaron [00:00:01] I'm Aaron Berg, I'm many things. A son, a husband, an immigrant, a dad. I'm also a Jew and I fought every stereotype there is about us. I was a bodybuilder, a male stripper.
Aaron [00:00:15] I worked in the sex trade. I became a stand up comedian. And I realized that to be Jewish is to be bad ass. Join me and celebrate all the bad ass Jews out there. And let me tell you, there are a ton. Business moguls, game changers, assassins. They come from every walk of life. This is bad ass Jews. And I'm your host, Aaron Berg.
Aaron [00:00:45] My guest today is so special. We are incredibly lucky to be speaking with her. She is one of the most decorated basketball players in history, period. She's won two NCAA titles while at Yukon. She's won three WNBA championships with the Seattle Storm.
Aaron [00:01:07] She's won four Olympic gold medals. She's also a five time Euro League champion. During her WNBA career, she's been selected to eleven WNBA all star games, which is the most of any player ever. She is the epitome of a bad ass.
Aaron [00:01:27] I'd like to welcome to the show the legendary baller, Sue Bird. Sue, welcome to Bad Ass Jews.
Sue [00:01:35] Thanks for having me. I'm glad I qualify.
Aaron [00:01:39] Before we get to all of your accolades and your incredible career, let's go back to that map behind you and where it all started. One of your favorite places on that map. Long Island.
Sue [00:01:53] Absolutely.
Aaron [00:01:53] And your dad's name was Herschel. And it doesn't get any more Jewish than that.
Sue [00:02:00] Middle name Nathaniel.
Aaron [00:02:01] Oh, there you go, Herschel Nathaniel. It sounds like he should have a delicatessen and a suit shop right next to each other. Did your dad live up to the Jewish name Herschel?
Sue [00:02:15] Yes and no. Like. It's interesting. We can get to this later, I'm sure. Like what I've learned about Judaism and being Jewish. It's like there's like a religion aspect to it and then there's like this like cultural aspect to it. My family's not like super religious. There's moments on my dad's side where we definitely get involved, but like culturally and just like something about how he carries himself, his attitude, his outlook. Hundred percent lives up to it.
Aaron [00:02:39] The cultural aspect of it is what most the people that we talk to on the show have. And they feel there's this fabric that kind of connects us culturally because there's there's a celebration and it's not even about, you know, high holidays. There's just something that you identify as, you feel that inside you?
Sue [00:02:58] Absolutely. I think it's like the stick together type vibe.
Aaron [00:03:01] Definitely.
Sue [00:03:02] You know, like. Yeah, like something that connects. I don't know, you take care of your own in a lot of ways.
Aaron [00:03:09] Yeah.
Sue [00:03:10] I think when you're a part of a community that there's like that. I don't know that you want to do that. There's that willingness to do it. And I hundred percent feel that on my dad's side.
Aaron [00:03:18] Do you think that that comes from the Jewish history of like this suffering and the pain and the sayings of stuff like never again where it's like we have each other's back because of stuff like the Holocaust and the Jews were slaves in Egypt? Like that stuff sticks with us, right?
Sue [00:03:35] Hundred percent. Hundred Percent.
Aaron [00:03:35] Yeah.
Sue [00:03:38] Yeah.
Aaron [00:03:38] What type of Jew was Hershel if you had to grade him? Was he Conservative? Reform? Orthodox? Some mix?
Sue [00:03:46] Yeah, no no no super conservative. But like, I don't know. He's just got, like a practicalness about him. He's like, really honest. You know, like kind of. And that's like when I think of my grandma that's the one thing, my dad's my mom obviously, like thats the one thing. I remember, I got my belly button pierced when I was in high school.
Aaron [00:04:06] Wow.
Sue [00:04:06] And yeah, big, big moves. And my grandma
Aaron [00:04:10] This was problematic, obviously.
Sue [00:04:11] Oh yeah.
Aaron [00:04:12] Yeah.
Sue [00:04:13] Oh. But my grandma at the time who was actually at that point, I mean now I know she only had maybe like a year or two left to live. Matter of fact, this might have been middle school making it even more wild.
Aaron [00:04:24] OK.
Sue [00:04:25] And I showed
Aaron [00:04:25] I like the way that you made it sound like it should have been OK when it was High School.
Sue [00:04:27] Yeah.
Aaron [00:04:28] Like no, I was in third grade I ran with some bad kids.
Sue [00:04:33] You know.
Aaron [00:04:33] Middle School.
Sue [00:04:33] Fake IDs and all.
Aaron [00:04:34] Yeah.
Sue [00:04:34] Showed her my belly button ring or like somehow accidentally I lifted when I lifted my shirt up I wasn't planning on it. She was like, oh. Oh, my God. And I just like did not approve. Was not happy about it. And I think whether it's my grandma I'm talking about or my dad. I actually never met my grandpa, he died before my parents were even married.
Aaron [00:04:53] I'm sorry to hear.
Sue [00:04:53] But those two. Thats okay. Those two like embodied like blunt honesty. Like truth tellers. Hundred percent. No matter what.
Aaron [00:05:02] That is like a very Jewish quality. And I'll find it. You know, comics that I talk to have that almost to a fault where there's just like this blunt honesty. Do you find...
Sue [00:05:14] With a little bit of disgust. You know, just a little bit of disgust.
Aaron [00:05:17] This soup is lukewarm. You don't just have to be honest about foods, Jewish people. Is that something that you took on hardcore? Or is that something that later in life you develop? Was that honesty?
Sue [00:05:32] I think later in life is when I like it fully formed. But from being around my dad, especially in my in my athletic career, having that truth teller that became like who I was. I didn't want smoke blown up my butt, you know I didn't want that to be a part. I wanted people to tell me the truth. Like, if I played bad, I need you to tell me that. And if you if I felt like you were kind of like, oh, no, no, it wasn't so bad. I'm like, then I don't have time for you. Like, I needed that, you know, like I had it from my dad so much. I almost was looking for it in other places, from my coaches, from my peers.
Aaron [00:06:04] So would you respond to, this is something I'd, I respond better to negative. If someone goes that was awful, then I want to do better and I want to work harder. Do you respond better to negative or positive criticism?
Sue [00:06:20] Negative. Which is like what's wrong with us? Like, why do we like the pain? But when I think of my college coach, Coach Auriemma at Connecticut, that's who he was. It wasn't negative. It was more just like he knew he had to challenge to get the best out of people. But the more he yelled at me, the better I played. The harder he was on me, the better I played.
Aaron [00:06:39] It's like honesty is this thing that pushes you to be better. There's no bullcrap about it. It's like here's what it honestly is. And and I think it takes a special person to respond to that and get better from that because some people would rather be coddled and be like great job out there. You're so worthwhile.
Sue [00:06:58] Yeah.
Aaron [00:06:58] And they think that if these people are in a positive mindset that they're going to play better or do better. And it's the opposite thing for extraordinary people. You need blunt honesty to be like that drill sucked. Go out there, do it better.
Sue [00:07:10] Basically, yeah.
Aaron [00:07:10] And that's how you respond, it's almost this rebellious nature where you're like I'm not gonna be average. I'm not going to be put into this box. Let me push myself. Is that the base of how you become an extraordinary person?
Sue [00:07:28] You know, it's like I'm sitting here listening, say that it's true for me. It speaks to me. But there might be other people that, you know, if they kind of live in that coddled world, you know, ignorance is bliss in a way for some. Not for me. Not for me. Like, I need to know all, I need to know, like what's going on. I need to know that I was terrible so I can get better. Where some people just want to be told how great they are, and that can propel them in a different way. That would not have worked for me. I don't know that it works for many, because at some point you're gonna do bad. Like what is like especially like as a baseball player, like you're gonna have bad games and you have to see them. You know, we're talking about truthtellers, the biggest truthteller is film. Like, you go you go back and watch a game,
Aaron [00:08:06] Yeah.
Sue [00:08:06] You can see when it's bad and you have to you have to do that, experience that, to know how to get better. So, yeah, I agree with you. I mean, it's how it is for me for sure.
Aaron [00:08:15] Which ironically, film is also a very Jewish medium. Have you ever noticed how honest it is? I mean, Hollywood is run by us for the most part.
Sue [00:08:25] Yeah.
Aaron [00:08:25] Used to be anyways. From Long Island, Jews everywhere. Right?
Sue [00:08:30] Everywhere yup.
Aaron [00:08:31] There was no sense of being different or feeling different in terms of that regard. Did you realize when you left Long Island and you went to your first place that was full of non Jews? Where was that and how did that happen?
Sue [00:08:50] So after my sophomore year of high school, I transferred. So born and raised in Syosset. Went to Syosset schools my whole life. Went to Syosset high school for two years. And for like a combination of reasons, but I would say it's like 80 percent basketball. But there was also this element of my parents were divorcing. And so, like that was happening, they were splitting up so different.
Aaron [00:09:11] How old, how old were you at that?
Sue [00:09:14] Like 14.
Aaron [00:09:15] And how is it, my parents are still together and I think I'm miserable because of it. I mean, they get along great but it's. I'm incredibly neurotic and I take around all this baggage, which means I have to go to this horrible therapist in the city. And I think he makes everything worse and I feel like sometimes emotions are a horrible thing. How did you deal with it? There was a lot of kids that loved having their parents get divorced because,
Sue [00:09:38] No.
Aaron [00:09:38] Yay two Christmases.
Sue [00:09:41] Yeah no, I didn't I didn't love it in the moment and yeah I didn't love it in the moment. I kind of like compartmentalize in this way. Like not a lot of people around me like friends, teammates, coaches, whatever nobody knew I didn't talk about it. But it was happening and I did not like it. I think it's because I was at an age, and I'm not going to argue what age is the worst to have your parents split up, but I like understood what was happening. I knew, you know, I was and I had to deal with those emotions. Maybe when you are younger you're kind of like, OK whatever, new norm, no big deal, you adjust. But at that age, I didn't want to adjust. I fought it a little bit at the start. But all in all, like they were not meant to be together. I see that, I know that, so it was definitely for the best. But what that did was, like I said, again, 80 percent of this was a basketball decision. I transferred to Christ the King High School, which is in Middle Village Queens. It's a Catholic school. So...
Aaron [00:10:29] I would have never guessed. I thought it was.
Sue [00:10:33] What gave it away?
Aaron [00:10:34] Christ, the Steinberg King of the Jews.
Sue [00:10:36] Yeah.
Aaron [00:10:37] OK so you...
Sue [00:10:37] It's like it's a basketball powerhouse.
Aaron [00:10:39] Right?
Sue [00:10:40] Yeah.
Aaron [00:10:40] And where was this? Where was it located?
Sue [00:10:42] Middle Village. Queens.
Aaron [00:10:43] OK.
Sue [00:10:44] So.
Aaron [00:10:45] Which was right, I live in Forest Hills right now so it's,.
Sue [00:10:45] Okay yeah, yeah, yeah very close.
Aaron [00:10:45] You're moments away yeah.
Aaron [00:10:48] One of the best basketball programs around?
Sue [00:10:51] Yup.
Aaron [00:10:51] And you slide in seamlessly.
Sue [00:10:54] Yeah. Luckily I played for an AAU team in the summers which is like when you get recruited and how you get you know looked at by colleges. AAU is like a big, big thing. Well it was, it was like a huge thing a huge part of it. All of my, it was affiliated with Christ the King, so all my teammates went to Christ the King, the coach was the assistant at Christ the King. So I knew everybody, I already knew. So the seamless part was like I had this built in friendship group. So I just boom right in. But yeah, I venture to say I was the I'm half Jewish. I would describe myself as definitely the only half Jew in the school for sure.
Aaron [00:11:24] Were there any feelings that. I had this moment I when I did, my first degree was in philosophy and I went to this school in a very small town. I was raised in Toronto, Canada. I immigrated here nine years ago to, you know, live the American dream, quote unquote, to get into standup. And there was a limited version of what you could do in Canada. So I moved here, but I moved to this small town of fifty thousand people and there were very few Jews. And at the time someone came up to me and they go, Berg, is that Jewish? And there was like a vitriol behind it. And I was like, no, I don't think so. So there was this moment of shame that I had, or fear to admit who I was because there was a whole bunch of anti-Semitism that at the time didn't seem like anti-Semitism. It was in the guise of jokes. And Jews are cheap and Jews are.
Sue [00:12:16] Yeah.
Aaron [00:12:17] So I of course then, I end up years later just basically putting it all over me.
Sue [00:12:23] All over.
Aaron [00:12:23] So people see me. Did you have any moments like that where you didn't want to bring up the fact that you were half Jewish?
Sue [00:12:33] Not in high school, I mean. Not really, not in high school. There is this one memory coming back, it happened a little bit later. And a teammate once said to me, by later I mean I was probably like mid 20s.
Aaron [00:12:44] Yeah.
Sue [00:12:44] And a teammate said to me, like, oh, you look Jewish. And I was like, what does that mean? You know? And I felt like she was saying it negatively.
Aaron [00:12:54] Yeah.
Sue [00:12:54] Right, like putting me down in a way. We talked, as it turned out, she was just like, no, like I know a lot of Jewish people and you have there's just like qualities there. And I'm just like, I don't like what? You know it felt like she was trying to attack.
Aaron [00:13:06] Yeah.
Sue [00:13:06] As it turned out, she was trying to, she thinks, well she was trying to give a compliment. I don't know what she has trying to do. But that was really the first time where I was like, whoa, that was some fight that felt like fighting words.
Aaron [00:13:17] Yeah. It's amazing that it does exist. Like you'll be with a group of friends and you think this is so and then you'll hear something that's vitriolic. And you're like I did not expect that. And I think it throws you back when you're not surrounded by a lot of Jews, like in New York. I I'm in comedy so there's Jews everywhere.
Sue [00:13:34] Yeah.
Aaron [00:13:34] So it's like oh we could and the jokes could be way harsher. And you can take them because you know that they come from a place of joking.
Sue [00:13:41] Yeah.
Aaron [00:13:41] Your mom, Nancy, was Protestant right? Was there any degree of that in your upbringing? And I don't even know that much about differentiating Protestants from Catholics, from Agnostics. What what stood out to you?
Sue [00:14:00] I mean, her family's not that religious either. The difference was, you know, when the holidays rolled around, we went to my mom's side we were doing the Christmas the Easter thing. We go to my dad's side we're doing the Hanukkah and the Passover thing. And that, to me, was the difference in the religions like, you know. And I had
Aaron [00:14:16] Different dinners.
Sue [00:14:18] Exactly. Yeah.
Aaron [00:14:20] Would you, let me ask you this. Would you do eat ham ever? Because I eat bacon,.
Sue [00:14:25] Yeah.
Aaron [00:14:25] But I sometimes get offended by ham.
Sue [00:14:27] By ham? I'm not a huge ham fan.
Aaron [00:14:29] No, but I love bacon. Do you like bacon?
Sue [00:14:31] Yeah, I like bacon. Yeah, I like bacon.
Aaron [00:14:33] It's the ham is a different thing to me. We talked to Jill Kargman about this too and she goes, no, ham is just a different thing. So did you did you observe high holidays? Would you get days off school? Obviously not when you went to Christ the King, it wouldn't shut down for Yom Kippur. Like, would you take time off? Did you ever go to synagogue? I know you were not bar mitzvahed.
Sue [00:14:54] I was not yeah. I was I was not baptized. I was not bat mitzvahed. I was nothing.
Aaron [00:14:59] Nice.
Sue [00:14:59] Yeah.
Aaron [00:14:59] Just untouched.
Sue [00:15:00] I'm just yeah. I'm in my own category but.
Aaron [00:15:04] It's awesome isn't it?
Sue [00:15:05] Yeah. But the funny thing is like I went to so many bar and bat mitzvahs, I'd be like Baruch Metode. I feel like I knew like all the
Aaron [00:15:12] Baruch Metode it's
Sue [00:15:12] Hava Nagila, I knew the whole the whole spiel.
Aaron [00:15:17] Have you picked up a chair and helped somebody dance on the chair before?
Sue [00:15:20] Oh yeah, of course. I mean probably
Aaron [00:15:21] It's the best.
Sue [00:15:23] Yeah, of course of course.
Aaron [00:15:23] When did the sports bug hit you? How old were you when you really started to know this is what I want?
Sue [00:15:30] Immediately Yeah, pretty immediately.
Aaron [00:15:31] Six? Seven?
Sue [00:15:32] Yeah pretty, pretty quickly. I was always a tomboy, so I was always like knocking on my neighbor's doors trying to get kids to come play, riding my bike, climbing a tree, over here over there. And then when I found organized sports, it just fit. And it was just it was always literally from day one. There was no moment. It's just I was born to be an athlete.
Aaron [00:15:51] Did you know it was going to be basketball?
Sue [00:15:55] No. So that part came a little later. Very quickly I knew it was basketball or soccer, and I ran a little track. This is now we're in like middle school, high school days. You know, it's like you got to pick certain sports in certain seasons and those are like my three. And then track I knew that was like, OK, this is OK for now, but I don't love this. But soccer and basketball. Basically what happened was when I chose to transfer to Christ the King, they didn't have girls soccer. So I knew what I was choosing. That's when I was choosing basketball and that's when I was like alright this is the one I'm going to go for. But up until then, 50/50.
Aaron [00:16:26] Did you have to wear awkward blue sweaters and weird skirts?
Sue [00:16:29] Weird skirts yeah. White or blue button down, weird skirts, tights and like I don't even remember we wore like boat shoes or whatever. It was cool I don't even remember.
Aaron [00:16:37] I got sent to private school because I got arrested when I was I broke into cars because I hung out with the wrong kids. So I was either going to a military academy or this private school where you had to wear like a blazer.
Sue [00:16:48] Yeah.
Aaron [00:16:48] And a tie. Because it's like if you dress young criminals up, they look better. And I hated the feel of the polyester blazer. It was just something so disgusting when you would get like a casual day. It must have felt so good to change into a uniform instead of your school uniform, right? You're like, oh, now I can breathe.
Sue [00:17:10] The worst was it was like they wouldn't turn the it's like they wouldn't turn the heat on until like after Thanksgiving it felt like, so you'd be. So I'd be in a skirt freezing, but then once when like the spring would kind of kind of turn and get hotter, they wouldn't turn the air on and so you would just be like sitting in these tights with, like, swamp ass for like all day because you're just sweating in these tights. I was like this is terrible.
Aaron [00:17:31] Maybe that's how, maybe the school used to just be called The King, but people were so offended by the temperature they'd be like Christ.
Sue [00:17:39] And then they added it on.
Aaron [00:17:40] That was a clever joke. I'm going to write that there and then use it somewhere. 2006, I want to jump ahead.
Sue [00:17:48] OK.
Aaron [00:17:48] You became an Israeli citizen.
Sue [00:17:49] Yes.
Aaron [00:17:50] A a very basketball motivated decision, right?
Sue [00:17:54] Yeah.
Aaron [00:17:55] Tell us about that.
Sue [00:17:55] Yes. The short of it is when you play in Europe, which for a women's baseball player that's where you can make, like, all your money. Like 10 times what you can make in the US. Honestly, at this point, probably more. So that's like a huge part of your career is going over there. But they have limits, they have rules in the Euro League. You can only have two. Technically, the way to explain it is you can only have two non Europeans on a team. So as an American. So we're talking Americans, Australians, Africans right? But it's really Americans. So a lot of times it just gets described as two Americans. So that's limiting. It's limiting from an opportunity standpoint as an American and then it's limiting for that team to, like, get a lot of talent. So if you're an American who has, like, ancestry of any kind connected to different places, different countries, and you can get your passport, you can then play as that passport. And so then you don't count against that two American two non European rule.
Aaron [00:18:53] OK.
Aaron [00:18:55] Is that, when was the first time that you stepped foot in Israel?
Sue [00:18:58] 2006. So I would say November, October/November, 2006.
Aaron [00:19:03] So you basically go over, you're like, I want my passport.
Sue [00:19:07] I wish it was that simple. The process started before that. And so the owner of the team that I was going to play for, his name is Shabtai Von Kalmanovich and.
Aaron [00:19:17] Bless you. So what was the name of that?
Sue [00:19:22] If you Google him, it's like he's got a colored background. So the best way I can describe it, describe it is he wore a lot of hats. The hat that we saw was that he owned a basketball team and love women's basketball. And he's he's Jewish. He's like originally from, I guess technically like Lithuania. But, you know, Soviet Union, it's kind of all. But he lived in Israel for a very long time. He may or may not have been like a Russian spy living in Israel, that's a whole other story. But he is very, very passionate and very proud of his culture, very, very proud of being Jewish. And he's the one that really like was like, oh, like your father's Jewish? This is a way we could do this. I was like, OK. And the cool thing was I, so basically the process I did aliyah so that's how I got the passport. So it was like it wasn't just showing up and being like, hey, I'm Jewish, here I am give me a passport. There were steps to be taken, interviews to be had. You know, different different things, just you have to go through the process is the best way to describe it. But the best part about Shabtai, was like he he taught me so much. Like, I grew up with half my family, you know, with going to Passover. But Shabtai was the one who who like basically. The teammate I told you about earlier who was like, you know, you look Jewish. He was the one that was like, you know, basically like, fuck yeah she looks Jewish, you know, like. And he was like, you should be proud when somebody says that to you. And I was like, oh, you know, he kind of instilled that in me because he he just he just he was so proud of it.
Aaron [00:20:42] There is this embracing, and I think American Jews have it but I also think, you know, European Jews have more of a sense of pride where they're like, yeah fuck it. Yeah, I own this.
Sue [00:20:56] Yeah.
Aaron [00:20:56] Where as, we we can be a little contemplative at times.
Sue [00:20:59] No he was he was all about it. And he he's actually also the one where I first realized, like there's a religion and a culture, they kind of happen at the same time and they're all intertwined. But there's definitely more of a cultural thing than even like in Catholicism or Protestant. I really don't know much about Protestants. I don't know anything about anything to be honest. But you can tell, you know, with Judaism, like the culture part is such a big part of it. And does it really always has to do with the religion, quote unquote, religious part.
Aaron [00:21:27] Obviously our podcast is called Bad Ass Jews. And there's this thing that happens sometimes with Jewish athletes where if one of them has success there's a huge push to claim them as the tribe, which is you can see by us reaching out to you. Are you surprised at how there's such a strong desire? Because, you know, admittedly not bat mitzvahed, but to be like Sue is one of us everybody.
Sue [00:21:55] I don't know, yes and no. It's kind of like, yeah, I could. I think when when here's a better example. When if you do the Wikipedia that's for me it's like one of the first things is said it's like an Israeli American.
Aaron [00:22:07] Yeah.
Sue [00:22:07] And yeah. And it's like some of my friends or even people in my family and like a sister on my mom's side they're like, isn't that. And I'm kind of like, yeah I guess there's like a little I don't know, it's not that it's disingenuous. It's just like to be the first thing, I don't think someone would describe me that way. But then simultaneously, like, it is a part of who I am. Like it is, it is part of my heritage. And so because there's probably not as many athletes right? Coming out of Israel or who are Jewish who are having this type of success, like, yeah, it's it's the truth, it is what it is. So I don't know like I said, come 2006 I learned so much more about myself, about my family history. And I think I take a great deal of pride in that.
Aaron [00:22:46] How did the change to Russia happen? What were the highlights for you? Does it feel like there's more of a star system? Do you feel more elevated and celebrated as a player there as opposed to here because you're one of the best to play the sport. Hands down. What's it like there? Did you do you feel like a celebrity there?
Sue [00:23:11] No. I mean, in some circles there was a little bit of that. The difference with Russia is so it's not it's like a totally different business system. It's not based on. And it's hard, I think, for Americans to really understand this because we're so like about capitalism and like you have a business, you grow it, you get the revenue. It wasn't like that. It was people who own teams and loved women's basketball and wanted to have great teams and spent a lot of money on it and wanted to take care of you. And the owner, Shabtai, you gonna say God bless you again or gesundheit or?
Aaron [00:23:44] I liked it.
Sue [00:23:44] He he just loved women's basketball. And the way he viewed it was two simultaneous like two things were happening. One for him, as somebody who just had like crazy amounts of money he was like, I can only and this is a quote he's like, I can only eat one, you know, breakfast once a day. I can only wear one tie at a time. Like some people buy Ferraris, you know I have 30 Ferraris. Some people go gamble. So I like women's basketball this is how I want to spend my money. And then at the same time, he kind of looked at us as performers and he wanted us to like always be in a place where we're taken care where we can just make sure we're always putting on a good show. So if that meant, you know, he would like send us, you know, different meals, take us on trips, make sure we chartered all of our flights. Everything was first class. We had drivers like he took care of everything because he wanted us to be able to perform.
Aaron [00:24:35] Do you get that here?
Sue [00:24:37] No it's totally different
Aaron [00:24:37] Do you get chartered flights? Do you get drivers? Do you get?
Sue [00:24:41] No, because here it's like the WNBA is based on, you know, like you have to have a product that's making money to get those things.
Aaron [00:24:47] Right.
Sue [00:24:49] It's not, you know, and we have rules, you know. Over there it's there's no rules, you can spend as much money as you want on a player, there's no salary cap, there's no max. There's no you know there's nothing. You can do you could spend as much or as little as you want. In in the WNBA every team has there's rules. You havve to spend a certain amount but can't go over that. You know not everybody, some teams would like to charter, but you can't because it would be an unfair advantage if every team can't do it. So there's it's just a totally different ballgame over there.
Aaron [00:25:19] So this brings us to one of the issues near and dear to your heart, which is equal pay. And it's an ongoing thing in women's sports. It's very clear that you are doing the exact same job, right? It's it's not, you're playing your heart out. It's the same job.
Sue [00:25:45] Yeah.
Aaron [00:25:46] So describe to me as a layman idiot,
Sue [00:25:51] OK.
Aaron [00:25:52] Why equal pay in your eyes does not exist now and why you have to continue fighting for it.
Sue [00:25:58] Well, you know, the reasons why it doesn't exist aren't aren't, you know us sitting here saying I'm doing the same exact job I deserve the same exact amount of money. I understand that it's a business and we get compared to the NBA often so we'll use that. The NBA is a business, it's a thriving business. They have the revenue, they have the ticket sales, whatever. So that's why they have the salaries. Nobody, I promise you, no female athlete is going to sit here and say we deserve I deserve the same as LeBron James. That's not what it's about. But what we do deserve, and this is where equal pay is almost misleading in this in this particular example. If we wanted to talk about, which obviously I know a lot about about women's soccer, that's different. Cause that's a, they're under the umbrella of a federation which is a nonprofit, and that's when you have to you do a man or woman are doing the same job they should get the same pay. So that's a different. This is businesses, two businesses. So with that, though, what we don't get the same is the media coverage. We don't get, you know, opportunities to huge endorsements. Companies just aren't going to aren't looking at the same. Why? And that's where the value is just all skewed and messed up I think in our society. Like what we value, what we're you know how women are looked at, all that. So that's really kind of like the meat and potatoes and where the fight needs to happen, not just us standing on a corner going we deserve the same. It's not quite, that's not, that's simplifying it too much and it really doesn't tell the story.
Aaron [00:27:18] Yeah.
Sue [00:27:19] But to your point earlier about the same job. What happens is you get, you know, idiots on Instagram or Twitter or talking about like, well I can beat you one on one so you can't be good.
Aaron [00:27:30] Right.
Sue [00:27:30] It's like that's not what this is about. This isn't about whether you can whether I can go and beat LeBron James one on one like we have our own game, they have their own game. People like to compare it.
Aaron [00:27:42] You would beat me one on one first of all. And second of all, that person that said that sounds like they have a head cold and their voice is very deep and I don't know why.
Sue [00:27:51] That's just what I imagined. They.
Aaron [00:27:54] Is that asshole guy voice? Is it the
Sue [00:27:58] Well, it's like he's been in his mom's basement for a long time.
Aaron [00:28:01] Yeah.
Sue [00:28:01] And it's stuffy down there. You know, he hasn't gotten fresh air. So it's like he's congested.
Aaron [00:28:05] I can't breathe down here my asthma's acting up
Sue [00:28:12] Mom, meatloaf!
Aaron [00:28:12] Mom, I need more macaroni and cheese!
Sue [00:28:13] Exactly.
Aaron [00:28:14] Did you take my Pop Tarts? Mom, where's my Pop Tarts? Where's my sock that's crunchy? Too much OK. I love this, this is fun.
Aaron [00:28:22] Your your college coach, Geno, in terms of equality in the sport he said he was in favor of lowering the rims in the women's game. A long debated topic in terms of women's basketball. How did you respond to this? And what what are your feelings also of having, you know, somebody that was a mentor to you having this very different vision of where the game should go?
Sue [00:28:51] You know, I don't think I think if you were to ask him what he meant by that, ask him his feelings on it now, I don't think it's exactly the way it came across truthfully. I don't think he's like, oh, women can't do it on the ten foot hoop so we got the. And that's that's my Geno asshole,
Aaron [00:29:06] That's his voice.
Sue [00:29:06] Yes.
Aaron [00:29:07] I don't live in my parent's basement so I speak very differently
Sue [00:29:09] Yeah.
Sue [00:29:12] But yeah, he, I mean it's tough he only knows what he is saying. I didn't agree with it. And to be honest the reasons why I don't, I think our game is fine. I think the way people compare it to men's basketball is the issue, I don't know how you stop that. But it's also just like a logistical nightmare. It's a logistical nightmare. So how are you going to lower and raise the hoops all the time? You can't do it at the park and I can't do it. It's just it would be too difficult, I know that sounds kind of like, but it's actually a very important aspect of it.
Aaron [00:29:41] OK. Do you would you judge somebody? There's this thing that happens in society now where we judge someone by their worst actions. So if you were to say oh this is what he said and I totally disagree with it, it doesn't alter the way that you view somebody who was your coach and you're mentor.
Sue [00:29:58] No. Like all things can like what I've learned, I feel like we all have in like today's world, a lot of things can be true at the same time.
Aaron [00:30:05] That's amazing.
Sue [00:30:06] A lot of things can be true at same time. And I think for him too, sidebar just real fast on the lowering the rim the other part of it is like, just because you lower the rim to nine feet doesn't mean women are going to be dunking like LeBron James all of a sudden. That's not like that's not what's happening. There's like an athleticism. And this is like a genetic thing this isn't anybody's fault. Like a woman cannot jump the same. I keep using LeBron I feel bad but a woman's not going to be able to just all the sudden be LeBron James on a nine foot hoop.
Aaron [00:30:31] Right.
Sue [00:30:31] That's not going to happen. In fact, it'll probably be terrible if they lower the rims people will try to do that.
Aaron [00:30:36] Not a lot of people have heard of your girlfriend. What's her name? Megan.
Sue [00:30:41] It rhymes with Shmegan, you know.
Aaron [00:30:46] Have you asked her to convert to Judaism? Obviously not. I read.
Sue [00:30:54] I do want to take her to Israel. I tell her that all the time she's never been.
Aaron [00:30:57] It's the first time I went, the only time I've gone, I was almost moved to tears like when I landed. And there was this sense of me, they documented it. I was it was a documentary called A Universal Language, because I went over there to do dirty standup comedy, which doesn't happen over there. And I've been doing great here so they're like, go over there. And it was met very mixed reviews,.
Sue [00:31:24] OK.
Aaron [00:31:24] Like, some people were like, oh, such cool freedom of speech. And other people like.
Sue [00:31:28] Disgusted.
Aaron [00:31:28] This is just dirty why are you doing this is just dirty. But there's this amazing field but you guys have traveled the world.
Sue [00:31:37] Yeah.
Aaron [00:31:37] Why do you think Israel would be a special place for her to see?
Sue [00:31:40] Well, first of all, there's no place like it. There's just not. And I have been pretty much everywhere and there's just not. And I know for her, she's never been anywhere like it. And I don't know, like when I went the first time, I was there for like two weeks and I kind of was just waiting. Like I said, I was doing this aliyah and I had to like was a lot of stuff I had to wait for and then it would be the weekend. And I'm like, alright I gotta wait till Monday and then oh it's a holiday I've got to wait. So there was a lot of that so I was just kind of hanging out and I want to make the most of it. So I did like every tour you could imagine, you know went to Jerusalem a bunch of times actually.
Aaron [00:32:16] Dead Sea?
Sue [00:32:17] Yeah.
Aaron [00:32:18] I loved the culture and how religious it felt, but that culture ripped through as well. Like Tel Aviv, to me, felt like just a more Jewy South Beach.
Sue [00:32:31] Yeah, totally. It's not, and that's the other thing people don't understand.
Aaron [00:32:36] Yeah.
Sue [00:32:37] That like, it's a city and it's actually gorgeous. It's on the water it's like.
Aaron [00:32:39] You find condoms on the beach. It was like some people were like let's bang here. Jerusalem really felt special. I remember just looking at the hotel and it was like, oh, I don't need to sleep this whole trip because there's so much I want to do. And it was just such an exciting time.
Sue [00:32:57] I, so when I went, I didn't I was able to take a friend. So the my best friend from growing up still my best friend to this day, his name's Brad, he's his family's very Catholic. And so and so was he he grew up Catholic whatever. So we go to Jerusalem and we do like a full day tour. And then we get to the part where, and you kind of do the walk of, like, Jesus on the cross they kind of like take you. And this is where this happened and that and you kind of do the walk and then you get to the point where, you know, he was like crucified and it's like in the sand and you essentially, like, stick your hand in this, like, hole like this hole in the thing. And it's like you touch the gravel, I guess, or the sand of it and they're like, and that is where Jesus was crucified. And Brad, started crying.
Aaron [00:33:40] Yeah.
Sue [00:33:40] And I was like, holy shit. And like, I wasn't moved to tears, but I was moved. It was like, woah what. Like something is happening here. And again, this is someone my dad's Jewish, my mom's Protestant, I went to Catholic school and like I don't know what the hell is going on, but that was a moment.
Aaron [00:33:54] Right. There is this thing where it it, first of all, feels so old. So everything you've heard at Passover and all that stuff that you for years were like, what is this weird fable that they're pushing down our throat? And then you go to Jerusalem and you're, oh, this stuff really happened.
Sue [00:34:11] Yeah.
Aaron [00:34:12] And it's and it's kind of mind blowing,.
Sue [00:34:14] It is, it is.
Aaron [00:34:15] And then you could buy a key chain.
Sue [00:34:17] I know I was just thinking. You know what, I wasn't thinking key chain, but I was like, yeah, I can buy like some Jesus cruiser sandals right over there.
Aaron [00:34:24] Oh these are real, Jesus wore them. With this Nike swoosh on the back. Were these even made in Israel? Is it strange to be such a private person and then not suddenly, it didn't happen overnight, but find yourself part of this famous couple? I mean, you guys are kind of like a female Brangelina, you know you're both the highly celebrated athletes that found each other. I don't know how, can you extrapolate on this? How did you guys meet?
Sue [00:34:54] Yeah.
Aaron [00:34:54] How'd you hit it off? And then you had this power couple, basically.
Sue [00:34:58] Yeah, I mean we met at the Olympics. That's where that's where, you know, high performing professional athletes usually, no I'm kidding.
Aaron [00:35:07] Yeah.
Sue [00:35:07] Yeah we met at the Olympics, which is weird because we were both playing in Seattle already for years. So to have the actual kind of like connection be made there just makes for a good story. But she was playing in Seattle, we were like why don't we hang out?
Aaron [00:35:21] Yeah.
Sue [00:35:21] Like this is stupid. And then the rest is history.
Aaron [00:35:24] So you started hanging out. You were both living in Seattle at the time.
Sue [00:35:27] Yeah, well she was in a relationship actually, so full disclosure. So it really was like, this is dumb. Like because when you meet people, it's like anything when you have it's a community. So it's like you have high level athletes, like you're probably gonna have a lot in common. And we and we hit it off right away. Actually, a bunch of my teammates and Megan hit it off right away. I was kind of like yeah this stupid we're in Seattle, let's hang out. Like we don't even live that far from each other. And then you fast forward like a couple weeks to a month and then it turned different.
Aaron [00:35:52] That's amazing. And how long have you been together now?
Sue [00:35:57] Close to four years. Very close.
Aaron [00:36:00] That's great. And it's, is there something, is there something about having someone not necessarily similar but with so many similar aspects, is there any negatives to that? Because my wife is a comic as well. So there's at times, you know, although we understand the daily rigamarole, I gotta go do spots, I gotta write, I gotta do this, we you know take care of our daughter at the same time. Is there anything, it's not a competitive nature.
Sue [00:36:28] No.
Aaron [00:36:28] Because you're in different sports.
Sue [00:36:30] Yeah.
Sue [00:36:30] Is it all just lifting each other up?
Sue [00:36:33] I mean, for the most part, like in that aspect of it yeah. Because they're such I mean, you could probably speak to this, there's just such an understanding there. So it's like even when it might turn negative or maybe someone isn't or hasn't been like showing up or maybe not is like emotionally available very quickly once it's explained you're like, yeah, I get that. Like, you know, maybe Meghan's been on the road for three weeks so it's we've just been missing each other missing each other like meaning literally like unable to call, couldn't have time to face time and there's frustrations that build. But then once you do talk and you're like, yeah, I get it I know. When you're with your team and you're on the road, like time seems to just like fly.
Aaron [00:37:11] Yeah.
Sue [00:37:11] So right when it does build, I think the understanding kicks in so and for the most part, it's it's just all positive because, you know, there are days where we wake up, we're going to work out and one of us is just not feeling it. But then the other one's right there to be like, no, let's go. And vice versa. So.
Aaron [00:37:27] That's awesome.
Sue [00:37:28] Yeah, it's been great.
Aaron [00:37:29] During this [quarantine] what are you guys doing to stay active? I know you're active on social media like crazy. I watched you like you guys are drinking. What were you drinking? You drink exotic drinks.
Sue [00:37:40] They're not that exotic. They're pretty basic.
Aaron [00:37:42] Something looked like there was fruit in it and there was a straw. And during a pandemic, it should just be like white claw or gluten free beer.
Sue [00:37:52] So we started our show kind of started where we're gonna do wine, and then very quickly we were like this is not quite the vibe. Like that was like, oh, we're going to wind down and be all. It was like, nah, we need to do something different. So we've been doing, I would say like 90 percent of time we're doing Moscow Mules. There's a company in Seattle that we like love, it's it's ginger beer. We like love it. And we actually we know that the woman who who owns it and runs it. And so, yeah so we've just been kind of, she's been sending us ginger beer and we order it and we just use it and we make these mules.
Aaron [00:38:20] That's great. You're a woman.
Sue [00:38:23] Indeed.
Aaron [00:38:23] You're gay.
Sue [00:38:25] Indeed.
Aaron [00:38:25] You're Jewish. See right there sounds like hate speech. However, and you're doing all of it in the public eye, with a smile I might add. Is there anything you can't overcome or deal with because you have this trifecta, you know, gay Jewish woman, that's three right there.
Sue [00:38:46] Yeah.
Aaron [00:38:46] It's a beautiful thing. It works in harmony together. Is there anything that you really struggle with in terms of overcoming, in terms of bettering yourself or something that you want to see change?
Sue [00:38:58] I think the thing that I struggle with the most is because I've played for so long, I've kind of I kind of experienced. I've internalized how society, how and I'm really not saying it's not about like I don't hate men. I feel like sometimes you talk about these subjects and people are like, oh, you're just a man hater. It's not that.
Aaron [00:39:16] I didn't picked up on that at all I've been talking to you for fifty five minutes.
Sue [00:39:19] Perfect.
Aaron [00:39:21] It seemed like we were getting along great and now you just.
Sue [00:39:22] Well I'm not done ye. I'm not done yet.
Aaron [00:39:23] OK, go ahead.
Sue [00:39:24] No, but like I've, I've internalized over the course of my career, especially my early career, like how men view female athletes. How they talk about us, how they speak about us and how society does. And through that like, it's changed how I've seen women's sports in this weird way sometimes where it's almost like, I don't know, it's almost like how people like fall in love with their captors. It's like I start to see it through their lens and I'm like, woah woah woah woah woah. And I struggle at times with how to like juggle that because I'm trying to change those minds you know now currently, and there's such a push for female sports, which is great. But at times I'm kind of like, and I don't and it's like you have to be a nag. There's like this nag aspect where I'm like ugh do I have be the nag in the room again? Do I have to be the one like actually, you know, female athletes do this and this and that and they don't get this and this and that. You know? So there's just this whole thing at times where that's like my internal struggle. I don't really show it often publicly, but I think there's times we, you know, you go to bed at night and you're like exhausted by it.
Aaron [00:40:24] There must be this thing that, this is probably the wokest thing I've ever said, there must be this thing that as a woman it's just not enough to be awesome at something. To have to deal with this other bullshit that gets thrown on top of it. Whereas if you're a man and you're just like, hey, look at me, I'm awesome. Then those actually accolades come.
Sue [00:40:52] You're just allowed to be that yeah.
Aaron [00:40:52] Yeah.
Sue [00:40:54] Yeah no that's that's definitely true. It's it's, it's like even similar to like you know, you talk to someone like I'll talk to my mom like an older woman of a certain generation and I don't know, there's times where they might say some things where you're like, don't you want more? But like that's how that's when, when and where they grew up and how they kind of internalize things. It's it's kind of similar to that where it's like, oh, is this my value? Like what's been told to me for all these years? Even though, you know, there's more. It's like this fight. That's a lot. We're getting deep here.
Aaron [00:41:21] Yeah. But there's
Sue [00:41:22] We're going deep dive.
Aaron [00:41:23] There's definitely like this this quality where you you can master yourself and master your sport, but then the environment around you doesn't give in or those accolades aren't there or that natural progression. So it's amazing that, you know this is sounds weird, but this is a learning moment for me, where it's opening my eyes to that too, you know? And I'll see in comedy, it's a different thing and sometimes there's there's ways charted out. It's not so much necessarily affirmative action, but it's like if Comedy Central's doing a thing, they'll be like, okay, this year we're going to take ten women, we're gonna take four people of color, and then we're gonna take two white men. So obviously there's this hey, it's hard to be a white man now. So that inevitably happens and then, you know, from satirical standpoint, there's stuff that comes out of that. But it's amazing to see that now, even though you've elevated yourself in the game, you have to shift the perspective of it, the worldwide perspective of it, and how women's sports are looked at.
Sue [00:42:29] Yeah.
Aaron [00:42:30] So it's a really, for lack of a better term, ballsy ass thing to do.
Sue [00:42:34] Yeah and that's why honestly I love being around younger players, they don't have that. They're just like, no charter me. What do you mean, why aren't we flying charter?
Aaron [00:42:42] Yeah.
Sue [00:42:43] And I'm like, OK, you know, they kind of like wake that up. Speaking to me..
Aaron [00:42:47] You've got this old school mentality where you're like you don't know what it was like when I was a kid.
Sue [00:42:51] I know, but I fight that. That's the that's kind of the thing. Like, I don't want to be that.
Aaron [00:42:55] Jewish heroes in your life. You won the inaugural Nancy Lieberman Award in 2000.
Sue [00:43:04] Yup.
Aaron [00:43:04] You went on to win three Lieberman awards in all.
Sue [00:43:08] Yeah.
Aaron [00:43:08] How did that feel learning about another iconic Jewish point guard? Like did that, I'm guessing there's not a ton.
Sue [00:43:16] No, there's there's there's not many. That was cool because we're very similar. Like she's from New York. She's from she's from Rockaway Beach, I believe. So here she was, we're like two like New York point guards who like, you know, and here I am winning her award. And she's obviously a trailblazer in our game. So that was that was cool to like, spend time with her then.
Aaron [00:43:35] So now you're going to have an award named after you at some point?
Sue [00:43:38] I don't know. It seems the markets cornered for it for Jewish point guard awards.
Aaron [00:43:44] There's only one, there's no free market Jewish point guard award. You know, you influence younger women in so many ways. Me as a younger woman. No. But like in terms of being Jewish, being awesome, being a lesbian, there's so many ways to affect people. Is is there anything that you would say to people that are striving to overcome? Because you have you've overcome so many things.
Sue [00:44:16] Yeah, I think one of the things I always try to tell, like younger people is and from what I hear, especially now, there's like this whole, like, snowplow parent thing where I don't know is what I hear. My sister tells me it's like, you know, parents are trying to just, like, make everything easy for their kids. So they the snow plow is like they're pushing it all out of the way. And I'm just like an my experience, bad shit is going to happen. So the quicker that you kind of like, embrace the fact that at some point the shit's going to hit the fan and it's more going to be about how you respond to it versus trying to avoid it, that's where like you find out what you're made of. That's where you kind of like, you know, that adversity kind of builds your character. Obviously, all of these things are cliche, but it really is true. It's like in those moments you find out what you're made of, you realize you can survive anything, and then when the next time it happens, it doesn't affect you as much. And you're able to kind of like move through things a little bit easier. That's definitely been my my walk.
Aaron [00:45:11] It's like an old school mentality that I have as well, where it's like I look back on the bad stuff and it was like yeah but the bad stuff happened, but then because of that all this good stuff happened because it forged me. And I and I hope that that's not lost on the next generation.
Sue [00:45:25] Totally.
Aaron [00:45:25] And I hope it's something you can impart. How much longer do you see yourself in the game for and what's next?
Sue [00:45:35] I mean, this pandemic is really throwing me for a loop. I would have loved to have sat here and tell you that I was currently playing in the WNBA, that I was on track to be on the Olympic team, and that that was going to happen in a month or two. And then I'd be able to kind of reevaluate after that. And if I could have squeezed out one more year, maybe, but I probably would have been OK with that. I do have some like, smaller goals that are that are not I don't want to say they're not important, but like the arena that we play in in Seattle, that was being it's being redone and we're not going to get back in until 2021. So I was kind of like, oh, I would love to finish there not like where we're playing in the meantime type of thing. But if I didn't get there, I didn't get there. I would have been fine. I say all this to say now it's all pushed back a year. So now I'm like eye on 2021. Like, no doubt I want to go for it and we'll see what happens. And then after that, I don't know. It's like I've tried to kind of you know, you talked about dipping your toe in. I've definitely tried to dip my toe in some different waters, see what sticks. I've really started to enjoy, like, the aspect of like commentating, but kind of maybe even hosting, like somewhere in there. Like, definitely it was women's basketball in mind, but maybe something outside of that, too. Just like a larger audience, like just sports or whatever. So I don't know I'm kind of like getting into that, it's been fun.
Aaron [00:46:54] Sue, we love what you do and you are truly the epitome of a Bad Ass Jew. Thank you for joining us today.
Sue [00:47:02] Thank you for having me. I appreciate that. Put that on the list accolades, for real.
Aaron [00:47:08] There you go, a Bad Ass Jew. It's your award now.